Jim Hummer founded two healthcare companies and invested in over 30 cutting-edge ventures, creating over $4 billion in shareholder value. Hummer discusses with Host Greg Muzzillo the lessons he learned from opportunities and failures during his career, including when he sold his company, Whole Health Management, to pharmacy store giant Walgreens.
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Jim Hummer founded two healthcare companies and invested in over 30 cutting-edge ventures, creating over $4 billion in shareholder value. Hummer discusses with Host Greg Muzzillo the lessons he learned from opportunities and failures during his career, including when he sold his company, Whole Health Management, to pharmacy store giant Walgreens.
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If you enjoyed this episode, click here to watch/listen to more from Million Dollar Monday.
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They wanted me to sign a 45 page non-compete. I said that would've kept me out of the healthcare industry for, you know, five to six years. I said no way. And they, wouldn't give me any severance. So here I was with three kids and a mortgage and all that other stuff. And I put all of my money back i nto the company. I own more stock than anybody else. And, and I was out that was it. T hey changed the locks on the doors a nd that was it.
Greg Muzzillo :Hello and welcome to Million Dollar Monday. I'm your host, Greg. Muzzillo bringing you real successful people with real useful advice for people with big dreams. I understand big dreams. I turned an investment of$200 and a lot of great advice from some really successful people into my big dream Proforma. That today is a half billion dollar company. Hello and welcome. I'm super excited to introduce my guest today. An entrepreneur among entrepreneurs, in addition to starting a company called Ivy Medical Group, after having exited that he started a company called Whole Health Management, which in 2008, he sold to the Walgreens company. And with that money, he built an organization called Luxembourg capital, which he has invested in over 30 companies, primarily in healthcare and aviation. He's a father of six and a grandfather of three triplets. Actually, I'm excited to introduce Jim Hummer, Jim, thanks for joining us.
Jim Hummer:Thanks Greg. Great to be with you.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, I appreciate it. All right. So take us back to the beginning and in the spirit of full disclosure, we're friends from high school. So we've known each other a long time, but, tell us where did, where did you grow up and when did you start getting the idea of getting into business and making money?
Jim Hummer:Sure. Well, I grew up in South Euclid, a suburb, a Eastern suburb of Cleveland, some middle-class neighborhood. my father was a home builder, for a good part of his life. He went back to law school at night when he had seven of us and could no longer feed the family on, what he was making, but, and he became a patent attorney. So I grew up in South Euclid and from the earliest day, you know, I would go out to the work site with my grandfather and father. My grandfather was also a builder. And so we worked really from the time that I can remember being able to be on the work site. And then, we always had paper routes and, lawn jobs and babysitting and anything that we could make money at, we caddied and, anything that we could do to make money. And, I use that money to pay for most of the high school. And then in college, my dad handed my brother and I, a paint brush and the ladder and said, here's how you paint houses, go and see what you can do. And so, we built a nice little painting company, and, paid our way through college.
Greg Muzzillo :All right. So you went to, University of Notre Dame undergraduate and then was, did you take a little time off before you moved on to Harvard?
Jim Hummer:So right after, I graduated in, with a degree in accounting. I took a job with Haskins& Sells, which is a predecessor to Deloitte. I took a job with them in San Francisco and, I had done an internship with them up in Detroit the summer before, and they obviously liked me and, they allow me to pick the office that I wanted to work in. So I picked San Francisco. I'd never been there before, but I heard that's where a lot of their good people, were working. So I worked there for two years. I got my CPA, credential, and then I applied to Harvard Business school and, started there in 1978. So two years out of college, I went back to Harvard Business school and attended there for two years. Yeah.
Greg Muzzillo :I actually went to work for Haskins& Sells a year after you in the Cleveland office, working for Jim Delaney. But I knew he's a great guy. He's down by you. Isn't he? Yeah,
Jim Hummer:He is. I see him every now and then.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, I was talking to somebody yesterday and, they mentioned that he was still with us anyhow, great guy and a great, great guy. There was no, no doubt. He was certainly a great business development guy, but I knew I was not long for, that kind of career and neither one of us. No. So anyhow, it's all it is all good. All right. So you get your MBA, uh, get me through at Harvard and congratulations, get me through starting that first business Ivy Medical Group.
Jim Hummer:Sure. Well, I took a job in Cleveland at a company called master builders. They were a division of Martin Marietta, a very profitable company that not very many people in Cleveland knew about. They made admixtures for concrete. They can make concrete, do all kinds of things, set up fast, set up slow, you know, harder or softer or whatever. And so I came in there, I did a summer job between my first and second year for the president, a basically an organization review. They liked it. And, um, they asked me to come back and, head up strategic planning for them, which they'd never had before. In fact, I think I was the first MBA in the entire company in that division. And, I was 25 years old at the time. And the next senior officer, the next officer closest in age to me was 45. And it was a, it was a great learning experience. They through human resources at me about six, seven months into the job. And so I had to go back to school and learn about HR at night and, did that. And then while I was doing that, my brother, Greg, who is as a physician, he is about a year older than me, was the lead physician on the first urgent care clinic in Solon, Ohio for Hillcrest hospital. And we got talking and he thought we could do it better. And I looked at it and I said, sure, why not? Let's just do a side venture. And so I work, we created a company, we found a builder, Neshkin construction to build the building and lease it back to us. We got a bank Ohio, a guy named Vince D eidre Alamo, who went on to become vice chairman of, National City Bank. But Vince, uh, loaned us$400,000. And we started up what, consumers knew as Med Center. It was an urgent care clinic business, way ahead of its time. And, we did very well. We started in business and three months later we were profitable. So we built two more quickly and those were profitable within three to four months each. And, you know, we thought we were really onto something and we went and, I contacted a classmate of mine from, from Harvard Business school who was at McKinsey at the time and his, roommate or classmate from Princeton who was also Harvard Law school was also at McKinsey. And so they came on board with us. We went and raised money from a guy named Chuck Feeney who owned the duty-free import stores. And he had just started up his own venture fund called General Atlantic general Atlantic today is an$8 billion fund, one of the blue bloods of the venture industry. Anyway, we were, I think his second investment. And then, through the connections we had at McKinsey, Roy Disney's investment firm Shamrock Holdings put, invested money as well, and then Primus from Cleveland put money in. So we started up, we built, 15 centers. We, did a great job in Ohio and we also expanded into Ventura County in Sacramento, California. And it was my first real lesson in the power of culture because in Cleveland, we had a culture where the patient was always right. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, even if they were wrong, they were right. And our job was to make sure that they were happy. We made net about a million dollars a year in Cleveland back when a million dollars was real money. Yup. That was back in the mid eighties. And we lost every one of those dollars out in California where the philosophy was, get the patient for as much money as we can possibly get. And so we had tremendous, return users in Cleveland, and we had one time visits out in California, despite the fact that California had three times the density within a three mile radius of our clinics out there versus Cleveland.
Greg Muzzillo :Wow. What a great lesson. So back me up to the beginning where you were able to convince a builder to build and lease back a building and convince an investment or a bank to loan you, hundreds of thousands of dollars. How did you do that? Uh, based on mostly reputation because there was no, there was no company history yet. How did you do that?
Jim Hummer:Yeah, that's, that's pretty much it, well, you know, here we had, um, my brother was a physician and another one of his physician buddies. We were all going to sign on these notes, so, and they looked at our backgrounds and they said, well, you guys look pretty reasonable, but we also showed them that we weren't going to take any money out until we were profitable. So that helped. I think that's a big difference today. Everybody expects to get paid right up front, you know, like, okay, I'm, worth, you gotta pay me$200,000. We, I sold my house when we started that business and I lived off the$10,000 for the first year. And, and my brother and, the other physician, Jeff Coffield really only took out what they could actually need to live on. They were both ER docs. They hadn't put, away enough money. We all had credit cards. So we, you know, we were maxing those out, but, um, but yeah, they looked at our background. They looked at our, we had a formal business plan that I think was,, looking back on. It was pretty, pretty detailed. And, I think it inspired their confidence and frankly, the bankers and the builder like this, Neshkin liked us because we came from a construction family. We understood what was involved from his standpoint. And we were willing to sign on the, on the line personally for those leases, the same with the bank. And so they, thought we were good credit risks. And, you know, even though we had never started a business before we had enough background to be able to convince them that we knew what we were doing. Yeah.
Greg Muzzillo :You put it all on the line for sure. And I agree. I agree with you Jim, you know, we're involved at, at different schools, University of Notre Dame, uh, University of Florida judging business plans. And it seems to me when I look at business plans, at least from the entrepreneurial side of things today, these younger folks are putting in, um, crazy valuations and crazy money for themselves from day one. And it doesn't, it doesn't seem to have the same work ethic or the willing, the willingness to put it all on the line. I don't know where that comes from, but, is that something,
Jim Hummer:And it's funny when I look at that, if someone tells me that, that's what they're going to do. I say, yeah, I'm the wrong guy for you. Yeah. I don't need it. I think a lot of it has to do with the mentality out in Silicon Valley. These days, everybody's going to be a billionaire and they're going to happen right away. You know, and I, frankly, I got stuck with a little bit of that. When we started up a med center, you know, up at Harvard Business school, there was sort of, a belief that if you weren't worth a hundred million dollars, you know, three or four years out, t hen you were a failure and it that just doesn't happen. You know, it just doesn't happen. A nd even the ones, you know, look at Bill Gates and people say, well, he was just lucky. No, it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of what I've called delayed gratification to do that.
Greg Muzzillo :When you were getting started, you personally guaranteed the debt and the undertaking. Are you finding that, that these younger folks today are still required to personally guarantee things? Are they also finding ways to get around that?
Jim Hummer:I think it's funny because in a couple of the companies, I asked him, I said, you're going to personally guarantee. they says, well, no. And I was like, really, you want my money, but you don't want to put yours own on the line. And, and so I think that that is a, probably an old fashioned value, but it's, to me it's extremely important. You, have to, you have to put it on the line. Absolutely. I'll back. Somebody like that any day versus someone who says no.
Greg Muzzillo :But I had, and I know you had the fear of failure, like failure wasn't an option because losing everything, I had lose everything you had, wasn't an option. And so you're going to find a way, no matter what it takes. So, all right. So you're making money in the Midwestern operation, the Cleveland area operation you're losing money, or losing it mostly over in the California operation. How do you exit Ivy Medical Group?
Jim Hummer:So it wasn't exactly a nice exit we, my, brother and I finally went to the, at the board meeting out in California and said, you know, obviously we've got two different companies here. One's working and one is not. And, up until, right before that meeting my brother and I owned over 50% of the company and we needed some more money because we were losing it out in California. So we raised a little bit more, another 3 50,000 that put us below 50%. And I learned another hard lesson. And that is whoever controls the board, u m, what happens. And so we went to them and said, look, we'll buy you out. We'll get you your money back because clearly this isn't working. And, and, we'll, I' ll m ove on. And, u m, t he other, my cl assmates f rom business school and ye ah, hi s c onnections at M cKinsey basically said, no, we have control. You guys are out. And I looked, and I said, seriously, because this is working in Cleveland, it's not working in California. They said, you're out. And that was it. They wanted me to sign a 45 pa ge non-compete. I said, that would've kept me out of the healthcare industry for, you know, five to six years I said no w ay. And they, wouldn't give me any severance. So here I was with three kids and a mortgage and all that other stuff. And I put all of my money back into the company. I own more stock than anybody. And I was out that was it. They changed the locks on the doors, and that was it. And you go t no value for, my stock went to Obviously they screwed it all up and they ended up selling it, f o r pennies on the dollar. So they ended up losing it. I had actually had university hospitals and Far ah Wa lters. I don't know if you remember her, they were going to be my partners in the thing. And we had plans to really take Med Center all around the North east Ohio, but they wouldn't sell it. And it really forced me to, you know, stop sorry for myself and get my butt back to work. And so I started up a new company and, started doing along the way in that. And at Med Center, we picked up a contract that NASA Lewis research center, and we did, preventive health and fitness for them. We operated their preventative health and fitness program. And that gave me a whole new idea of, you know, an integrated approach to health, medical, physical, and mental health. And so it actually helped out because, it gave me a chance to put together a whole new model of prevention, integrated with primary care. And that model turned out to be extremely powerful. And, and that's what really launched Whole Health Management.
Greg Muzzillo :So take me go from being, less than graciously exited from your first company. Again, probably not having a whole lot of money yet. How are you able to fund the startup of Whole Health Management?
Jim Hummer:So, along the way, at Ivy Medical Group med center, I probably amassed about 40 credit cards. Those were the days before the banks really contract all that stuff. So I had about 40 credit cards and I probably had about a hundred thousand dollars worth of credit that I could pull. And so, I actually picked up a contract at NASA that allowed me to make my mortgage payment. I had to sell my car because I couldn't afford it. My mother let me use her old Cutlass that was rusted out. And, so I made ends meet. And then one thing led to another and a f ellow that I competed against in Washington DC in the federal c enter, Dr. Richard Compton called me one day, just as I was thinking about calling him and said, you know, Jim, I always liked how you competed against me. I'm going to retire and I want to sell my company. I want you to take care of my people. So I drove to, I borrowed a car and I drove to Washington DC. I met with him, we cut a deal to buy his company, which at that point was, was grossing about$1.5 million. And I bought it, u h, I gave him, he took a note back and then I went out and all my credit cards, I borrowed, I think$65,000 in one day. And, and I, that was the down payment for that company. And then I, he took a note back for the rest and I paid h im off in six months. And that was really the start of it. I figured out how to basically do a l everage buyout with credit card debt.
Greg Muzzillo :So, his business concept of the business that you bought with similar to the Whole Health Management contract you had at NASA, the NASA Lewis, by the way, which is in Cleveland, Ohio area.
Jim Hummer:Yes, it was similar. And, um, he had NASA headquarters, the veterans administration headquarters and the National Science Foundation. So now I had four contracts and then, NASA Lewis research center put out, uh, their, their major contract for bid. And I won that. So within, within the first year, I was at about$3.2 million, I believe. And because I was living pretty, pretty frugally and working out of my home, I was able to generate some pretty good profits from that.
Greg Muzzillo :Tell me about the business model itself. Did you, did you put, operations on the site of the businesses that provided health management consulting, or tell me a little bit more about what you, what you actually did, what the company did when they want a contract.
Jim Hummer:So w e're, we're basically a large medical group, a nationwide medical group is what we were. And, so if, let's just take continental airlines, they were a client of ours. They had, the big hubs, they had five hubs around the country. They had Newark, they had, Houston, they had Los Angeles was a hub and they had Guam. Those were their major hubs at the time. And so, they gave u s space at each one of those airports and we, built out a clinic with their money and we staffed it and we c harged them cost plus a fee. And so we made money from day one, but we aligned our interests with them. In other words, the more we could keep their people healthy, then the more their people could work and the more t heir people could work, the higher their productivity for the company and the happier the employees were because now they didn't have to go off site to get care. It started off as work-related care for them, but within 12 months, about 70% of our visits were for personal, but it still had the same impact. What I understood on this whole thing was that keeping people healthy not only kept your lost work time down, it also increased your productivity and kept your medical costs down. So it was a win for everybody. The clinicians could practice medicine the way they were taught, the employees could get care very conveniently and without any friction for costs. And the employer was winning because productivity was going up and their costs, their healthcare costs were going down. Got it makes sense. It was very powerful. Still is today, It is even more important today
Greg Muzzillo :I'm not a Big fan of cost plus well, I am, when I'm the provider, but sometimes I find, unless the contracts are very well-written, there's no motivation for the provider to keep costs down when you're in a cost plus situation.
Jim Hummer:So we always had a budget and that was what I think one of the other key things I had to tell you this story, because at NASA Lewis research center, we had a contract that was a maximum. And then, and then we operated to that. Okay. So it was our actual cost plus with a cap of the, of the max. So, along the way, NASA needed some more services. And so I went into to meet with the contracting officer and, he said, this is what we'd like to do. I said, well, I think we can do it. You know, we can do that. And he said, well, how much more is it going to cost me? I said, well, I don't think it'll cost you anymore. I think we can move some things around and we can add this service without costing you anymore. And I never forget. He kicked back and his and his chair put his feet up on the desk and looked at me and says, okay, what's the catch? How are you going to get me? And I said, well, no, it's what my grandfather and father taught me. If you're honest with people and you can deliver value, then you do that. And so, from that day on, anything that we wanted, he got us because he knew we were going to treat him right. And we went on to be the only medical provider for NASA to win their George M Lo award, which is like the Malcolm Baldrige award. And, so it was that that's part of the philosophy that we had within our company is you always deliver value and you don't have to charge people more if you can figure out how to move things around and do things more efficiently.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah. All right. So, you know, it's interesting, the story sort of is based in Cleveland with the Ivy Medical Group. And also then with the way you treated the people at NASA and your clients just doing the right thing, it sounds like a great business plan and a business model and not doing the right thing sometimes can catch up to you in a bad way. so get, yeah g et me to, how does Walgreens become aware of you and how does that dance happen?
Jim Hummer:Sure. Well, there was a group out of Minneapolis called Triple Tree they were a merchant bank who did a lot of research in healthcare. They focused on healthcare services and healthcare. IT they were started up by, a guy named Kevin Green and they were just, you know, Midwestern guys staying focused on healthcare. And, they heard about us, somehow. And they started writing about what we were doing and that we were on the cutting edge of a new wave of healthcare delivery. There were a lot of people in the healthcare industry that read their newsletters. And so it was, it was sort of crazy. In mid 2007, uh, we had just picked up Intel as a client and we're in the process of building out 13 clinics for them. And we were really starting to win a lot of business because our reputation was really becoming well known across the country. And pretty much out of the blue Aetna called Cigna called Blue Cross called Walgreens called wow. They all wanted to buy us. And we were like, you know we're really not for sale. but, they kept at it. And, f ortunately, or unfortunately we had taken in 2001, we ha d t aken money from a lot of the retired CEOs of the Cleveland companies that I knew through the Harvard business school cl ub. So Ju lian M cCall, Roy Gentles out in th e w hite house, y ou, you name it. Th ey, were all investors in the company and they were getting up there in the years and, u h, C huck Aims was another one. An d, and they said, you know, we'd like to see a return on our money. You know, even though I controlled the company and I didn't have to do it, you know, these guys were there for me and it was the right thing to do. So we ended up selling, Walgreens, had said that they were going to take our concept and spread it across the country. They were buying our largest competitor and I was supposed to run the whole operation for the CEO. I was a little naïve because they really had other plans. They just wanted to get us out of the market because they knew they couldn't beat us no matter what they did and, and having, a pharmacy owned the healthcare company, it was perfect for us if we had to compete against them to show the difference in approach. So we ended up selling it to them with the idea that we were going to build out at least 300 of these centers across the United States on Walgreens properties. And, when the ink dried on the deal, that's not exactly what they really wanted to do. So they told me what they wanted to do. And I said, n o, I'm not doing that. I didn't work 25 years to build this reputation and this concept to do that. So, I didn't go with, w ith the company after that, I left and started up, ju st s t arted i nvesting in he alth, healthcare ventures.
Greg Muzzillo :I've gotten to know a lot of CEOs, presidents, founders, through young presidents organization, and, lots of other international franchise association. I'm still waiting to meet the first founder CEO that sold their business and happily went to work for another company for any period of time. It just, it's never a good fit
Jim Hummer:Well, it's two different cultures, right? One is you're willing to sign on the dotted line and the other one is, use other people's money and they don't, they just don't have the same approach. Doesn't make them bad. It's just, it's just different. And they just don't understand the entrepreneurial spirit. That's all.
Greg Muzzillo :Yeah, I get it. All right. So you start Luxemburg Capital. Now, you're not doing that with credit cards anymore. You're obviously very financially successful having sold your business to Walgreens. We don't have time to hear all of the stories of Luxembourg Capital, but is there a really great success from your investment? And is there a really a horrible investment? Is there like what's the top story or the bottom and the bottom story, if you don't mind sharing,
Jim Hummer:I'll tell you, I'll tell you the bottom stories. I put a lot of after I sold, I put a lot of money into a company called Ink Stop. Oh, you may have heard it. So I was probably the largest single investor in that, on the recommendation of some friends and who were also shareholders in our company. It looked like a great concept. Everything that I investigated about it and the people that were involved in it all made sense. It had all the right people. And, there was only one problem. The guy who was running, it was not very ethical and it turns out he was cooking the books. I discovered it, everybody was upset with me that I was saying that there was, there was some big problems here and, it turned out that it was so, I ended up getting off the board because no one would listen. And then the thing imploded. So, that was, that was a big disappointment. I had, three of those and unfortunately they were all big. They were, you know, one was 17, one was eight and the other one was,$2 million that all went down. But the good news is that I've, I've had more that have been successful than not. And that's what sort of keeps me, excited about, Ken R icky, you know, is one of my, best investments. I wish I had put more in, but at the time I was a little dumb. Ken has built a tremendous operation there. He's, he's one of the great leaders, u h, in the aviation industry, right behind NetJets. Yeah We're number two behind NetJets, yea we're Number two behind NetJets. Yeah. Right. Ken's an experienced pilot and he built it from the ground up. I was there in 1980 when he started, I had just moved back to Cleveland. He had just moved to Cleveland and he started it up. So we've been friends for a long time. So that is one of my better investments, my best investment,, and, I've had a couple others, cover my meds. I just had a little piece of that, but it ended up selling for, I think, a billion dollars to McKesson. And then, this one that I'm currently involved with is called Endotronix, it's a wireless h eart, pulmonary pressure sensor, that's inserted into your pulmonary pressure. And, it's really neat technology. And, we can monitor your pulmonary pressure, which is the single best indicator of impending heart failure, which is that whole cardiac area is this is the largest segment of the healthcare spend in the United States, perhaps the world. And we've got a solution that is a really neat, and we're in clinical trial right now, or should be done with that by the end of this year. And, w e're hopeful that that's g oing t o change the industry.
Greg Muzzillo :Clearly you've created massive amounts of success. You've created over$4 billion. I've read in shareholder value through the investments of Luxembourg Capital. That's a great run. Um, what, what advice, what top pieces of advice would you give entrepreneurs and people with big dreams?
Jim Hummer:Well, I would say number one, always do the right thing. It may hurt you in the short run. It won't hurt you in the long run and you'll be able to sleep at night. So you, no matter what happens, you have to look in the mirror and y ou g otta say, I did the best I could. And I did the right things. Even when it hurts you, that's number one, number two, don't be afraid of risk, but you know, the best entrepreneurs are not really crazy Wildman. They take very calculated risks. I knew exactly what I was getting into and all the businesses that I started for the ones I invested in, it's really come down to the people. So if you're honest and you're transparent with your investors, t hey can forgive you shortcomings. They won't forgive you for lying or hiding or cheating. So eventually that stuff all catches up with you. It has in every instance that I've been involved with, it's not worth it. Your reputation is damaged. You're, never going to realize your dreams. So, and then just, don't be afraid to work hard. I mean, it's Entrepreneurship is 24 seven, right. Greg, you know that it's, it's a lifestyle. It's about the hustle. It's, it's not about, you know, going out and golfing. I mean, if I was, if I was able to golf 10 times a year, when I was building the company, that was a lot. It's trade offs, it's compromises in your life, you know, and unfortunately, sometimes that happens on the personal level too. It's you're so focused trying to do what you can to keep everything going that sometimes personal relationships suffer, but, you know, you do the best you can in that situation too.
Greg Muzzillo :Just, just do the best you can and, try to balance it all out. And it's very difficult, especially when you're starting something with virtually nothing. And, so you just do the best that you can. And you've really done, the best in many situations. Clearly you're very financially successful. You're a successful husband and a successful father and a successful grandfather. And, and so now here you are, we're the same age, you know, what, what big dreams do you have now for your life?
Jim Hummer:So I think that the most important thing for me right now, I think number one is to be a good husband, if I can. I mean, you know, I'm not working full-time anymore. And so it's a different phase o f my life but I w ant t o be a good husband, a good father, and I want to teach our kids, all those lessons that have been so hard, hard one, right? I mean, for sure, there's a lot of experience there. And I think the older our kids get the more they appreciate that because they are now having some of their own experiences. And I think that they're really understanding, the value of that. So I'm excited about that. I want to teach them that. I think they all have a desire to be entrepreneurs. So the key is to help them along, not do it for them. You know, they have to learn their own lessons. They got to fall and skin their knee and smash their head. B ut, you know, it's about getting back up and getting back i n the fight. And, as I said, most of all, just being, doing the right things and being honest in the end, that value is going to, is increasingly in short supply. And those who can live to that standard, I think y ou're g oing t o do just fine.
Greg Muzzillo :No doubt Jim. Well, I really appreciate your joining me today. I appreciate your sharing your stories, honestly, and openly. I appreciate most of all, that just do the right thing. I'm surely more proud than ever to call you a friend, more proud than ever that you joined me for this show I really appreciate your time.